Going International

Tammy Zonker: Today on the intentional Fundraiser podcast. I'm talking with Darryl Upsell. Darryl is the president of Darryl Upsall International Consulting and Darryl Upsall International Recruitment. He's been working in the nonprofit sector for nearly 40 years. He and his team worked with more than 300 organizations worldwide. They have successfully completed 742 nonprofit executive searches for more than 260 organizations in 129 locations worldwide. Organizations like World Wildlife Funds, Oxfam, Greenpeace, UNICEF, Amnesty International the very impressive list goes on and on and on. And Darryl lives in beautiful Madrid, Spain. And as a side note, he is an amazing foodie and chef.

So, Daryl, my first question for you is, when are you and Miriam inviting us over for dinner?

Daryl Upsall: About a month-long waiting list. And we love to cook and eat, and I enjoy all the fantastic produce here in Spain.

Tammy Zonker: Fantastic. So, Darryl, welcome to the show.

Daryl Upsall: Pleasure to join you, Tammy.

Tammy Zonker: Thank you. Well, seriously, for us, it is such an honor to have you here, and always a delight to talk with you. Shall we jump into some questions?

Daryl Upsall: Yeah, let's go for it.

Tammy Zonker: Awesome. Why don't you share with us how you got your start in fundraising?

Daryl Upsall: Sure. I think as a child, I was a kind of entrepreneur. I always found little ways of making some money, selling something that somebody else had maybe thrown away, and then I would find a purpose for it. And I think that led to me being what I'd call a natural-born fundraiser. So, in high school, I formed a pop band. I couldn't sing, I couldn't drum, I couldn't play the guitar. So, I became the manager. And the first concerts were to raise money for a cancer care unit. I should go on to say, by the way, two members of the band went to found a record label of which Oasis was one of their bands.

Tammy Zonker: Wow.

Daryl Upsall: Pretty successful stuff.

Tammy Zonker: I guess so. And so did you.

Daryl Upsall: Even a movie made of them. I actually ended up in the music world quite a lot, so that was a good start. But then I was at Cambridge at the university and English student life. You have a fundraising week. And I became the president of that. I became involved in politics and very much in progressive causes. And I guess one of the things I learned very quickly is progressive causes have the least money. Everybody's willing to talk. Not many people were willing to raise the funds, so I jumped in and raised the funds.

Tammy Zonker: Incredible. And I am seeing some really common themes and threads that we could pull through. I mean messaging, advocacy, and inspiring people to action, which certainly music does. And I think that music moves people. And we all know that nothing happens until somebody feels something in fundraising.

Daryl Upsall: Absolutely. I was driven by passion, and I think music creates passion. Causes create passion. I've been lucky enough to work on development issues, women's rights issues, HIV AIDS, Greenpeace, and the environmental issues as an employee, as you were, and you can't work for those without being passionate. And I think when you're passionate, that fuels your fundraising.

Tammy Zonker: Absolutely. I could not agree more. So, Gerald, you have really built this nearly 40-year career in international fundraising, consulting, and recruitment. And I consider you the expert on what it means to work in the international space. So, I want you to kind of expand if you would, from your point of view, what does it really mean to go international with your fundraising career?

Daryl Upsall: It's a good question, and I think it means different things for different people. You could be working for Save the Children in the USA, for example, and there you're working internationally, you're raising money for an international cause, supporting children and families around the world. That is international fundraising in a certain sense. In another sense, and I'd say more related to the way I work and my colleagues at Darren Upsall International Work, we're raising funds and helping people raise funds all over the world. So even if I take Save the Children, Save the Children is present in many, many countries. But if they want to enter Mongolia or they want to evaluate their fundraising in South Korea, that's what we do. But I'd say as an organization, to be international, it means you need to be raising funds in more than one country. If you're a fundraiser who's working internationally, I think you need to be working across more than one country.

Tammy Zonker: Interesting distinction. I think that all of my fundraising experience has been based in the U.S., Working for causes that are delivering mission-changing lives in the U.S. But I have worked with clients who are U.S. Based or headquartered, raising funds locally and abroad to serve missions locally and abroad. And I think that one of the challenges that they often encounter is for my U.S.-based donors, how do I take them to the mission? I mean, occasionally they will. Some of the major donors are individuals who have the deepest levels of commitment or wealth that can actually fly to have an immersive experience or to see the work live and in person. I think those are the exceptions. Over the many years you've worked with groups in that situation, what have been some of the more inspiring ways that they've been able to take the donor to the scene, so to speak?

Daryl Upsall: Great question. And if I go back to my beginnings of time, which were in the early mid-80s, what would often happen is we would bring beneficiaries from the countries where we're working and have them speak to church groups, have them speak to women's organizations, have them share their experience of what life is in Nicaragua, Salvador or Guatemala, which was the region I started really working in. And with, or there would be volunteer brigades doing work out there. Interestingly. My Spanish niece and nephew have just come back from Africa, where they spent three weeks working on a project in Senegal. And they're landing back today. And I'm sure they're going to be full of stories. And that storytelling from the field, be it field workers or volunteers or Beneficiaries, is immensely emotional. And in the old days, you would have a slide show, those machines which completely click, and you try to think what you call it, like a round thing with all the images. But today, I think it's amazing what we can do. I've always been a big fan of MSF and have worked with them again all over the world. And MSF Canada, probably going back now 15 years or whenever it was Skype came out, started doing live broadcasts through Skype and inviting people to join their doctors in the field. Could be South Sudan, it could be posts, an army, or whatever, and you could see and hear through your Skype mostly, then on a desktop computer or laptop, telling what was going on, moving around with the camera in their phone or their laptop and showing actually the scene around them. And you could do Q and A. And I've got to admit, yeah, that brought me very close. And now what's happening is people are using WhatsApp. For example, in Spain, I think we have 120% usage of WhatsApp. It doesn't matter whether my wife's mother speaks. She's on WhatApp all day sending messages or little video clips of her. And again, people are doing what's up? With broadcasts from the field, recording, and sending to groups. And what I've heard really interesting is now there are quite a few major donors WhatsApp groups. So, if you're in a kind of group of, say, maybe five or ten very wealthy individuals, and you're giving significantly to a project, and it's overseas-based, you can put those six people into a WhatsApp group and have a report from the field, a report from the CEO, a little video from the Beneficiary telling them the work that they have enabled through their gift. I think technology brings us all closer. And in these times, when we've been used to using these such tools, they're great for bringing it close to a mission.

Tammy Zonker: I love that. And certainly, we've seen how the use of video can really help bring the mission to our supporters. But this idea of using WhatsApp I think, is really profound in a couple of ways. One, it is live. They can join and see the work, of course, but two, they're in that it feels like a very private kind of protected group. So, it gives that sense of privacy specialness, and certainly, it provides feeds that psychological principle of social proof, right? I'm here with other peers and philanthropists. My interest and my commitment to this are affirmed by these other respected folks.

Daryl Upsall: Donor Advised Group living within WhatsApp. And the great thing is you could end that little broadcast from the nonprofit in question is helping their story be told and banking the beneficiaries that the donors but then the donors can themselves choose to have a chat and say, hey, guys, what did you think about that? I thought that was awesome. I think they deserve more support. Yeah. So, in a sense, they could reinforce each other, but within the privacy of WhatsApp.

Tammy Zonker: I think that is a real strategy and tool that most of our listeners, whether you're doing international work or whether you're even doing local, regional, or national work, but you've got donors all across the country or alumni. Yeah. I think that's the surprise.

th HIV AIDS? I had a board of: 1213

Tammy Zonker: Very powerful. Wow. Love it. So, of course, there's a conversation about making certain that we aren't exploited in our storytelling or showcasing through the use of video or images, or there's been some criticism more recently emerging about even when and how to use testimonials or when and how to use mission tours. It's just so important that we equip and empower both fundraisers and those we serve to tell their story in a way that empowers them, and doesn't make them feel exploited or taken advantage of, or any unhealthy power dynamics. What are your thoughts on that? What are you seeing from an international perspective?

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Tammy Zonker: Absolutely, yes. I mean, that is a whole other chapter in this book of ethical fundraising and ethical storytelling, for sure. One of the tools that I came across as I was exploring this was the DOCAs code of conduct coming out of Ireland, and essentially its principles are respect for the dignity of the people concerned, belief in the equality of all people, acceptance of the need to promote fairness, solidarity, and justice. And then, it goes into detail about how we empower and honor the person who is being served. Right. The recipient in a way that they have complete control over their story, how it's told and where it's told, when it's told, and for how long it's told. And essentially, the bottom line is that consent is more than I signed documents. Right. It's an ongoing conversation. Yeah.

Daryl Upsall: I also have to say there are some organizations that were using images of starving children in Africa long after that child had died, and in some cases, long after the child who was presented as a two-year-old was 20 years old. And that same person is 20 years old, living in the world. And yet the world is seeing their images as a two-year-old in a very bad situation. It's not with space. Yeah, but it's a conversation. I think we'll constantly change that. It's a bit like showing same-sex relationships which were never shown before, but we've always been a reality. And I would say a whole issue of diversity and inclusion in images has definitely impacted how we present our organization.

Tammy Zonker: Yeah. Such an important conversation and, as you said, one that's continually evolving and that we all have to really, as fundraisers, commit ourselves to staying up to date, to educate ourselves, to ask questions and understanding, and for all of us to be kind of in a space where we don't attack one another in those conversations because we are all trying to learn and do better. I don't know who said it, but the saying was, when you know better, do better. And I think that's at the core of this conversation. Yeah. So good.

Daryl Upsall: One of the challenges also is it's a fast-evolving world. Poor countries cannot be said. The Global South, is that pretty great now, or not? Or is it developing countries well developed? By whose standards? So, I think, again, we're always very mindful in our organization when working with clients. Is the language with which you use very important because all language is weighted and colored?

Tammy Zonker: Yes. And isn't that an interesting dynamic, especially in the space of international fundraising, because language, meanings of words, cultural dynamics, there's a lot to understand when you're trying to engage potential supporters or current supporters to support a cause. So, I'd love to have you share if there's a fundraiser out there, whether they're new to the profession or seasoned or kind of mid-career, and they're thinking, gosh, there's a lure, there's a calling for me to explore going international, doing international fundraising. So, what does that look like for someone who might want to go international? And I've heard you talk about having an international mindset, so unpack that for us. Tell us what that means.

Daryl Upsall: It's interesting. Sometimes it even starts when you're very young. The first thing I did when I was 15 or 16 was hitchhiking around Europe. Hitchhike? You could do it in those days. At 18, I hitchhiked around the United States and Mexico, much to the horror of my parents. But I think the first thing is, if you want to work internationally, you've got to be able to go outside your own community. And that is not just geographical community, but to get to meet, visit, and spend time with other communities. I managed when I was 20, I think I was, to spend four months in India. And the biggest welcomes, let's say, me and my friend traveling together, but with some of the poorest Indian families who took us into their home and shared a doll and a bread with us and their family. And that was a big deal, but it gave us insights into their heart and their generosity and made us recognize where we were coming from and that benefit. So, I think there was a phrase I used to use always if you're going to work internationally, you've got to be able to smell the dirt. And by that, I mean the dirt of Africa snow differently to the dirt of New York. The sound of New Delhi is very different to the sound of New York or New Orleans. If you go there, you experience it, and then you start to understand more of the life that people are living in, especially if you don't go deluxe version and stay in a modest way. The other thing I would say is and I'm bad at this, but learn languages. My wife speaks five languages. My son speaks three fluently. I'm told I speak about one and a half Spanish people. But again, by listening to people that you get nuances into things. And I would say simple things like, if you only look at your local newspaper, you won't even know what's going on nationally. So, listen to international broadcasts in the US. Listen to PBS. I love listening to public service broadcast radio in the USA because, as you do with the BBC broadcast from around the world, we broadcast and donate to an international nonprofit outside of your country. You can do it easily and see what messages they give you. There's so much you can do that makes you get a sense of looking outwards and hearing from outside before you go into it. And I think that's some of the tips I would definitely recommend people do, because sometimes when somebody's maybe worked only in one city or one state, and they say, I want an international career, and I go, okay, so what's international about your life right now?

Tammy Zonker: Great question.

Daryl Upsall: It could start with food. I love Indian food, or I love Thai? Well, speak to the owner Thai restaurant a little bit about their life. That's interesting.

Tammy Zonker: I think that's such incredible advice because even when you describe it, Darryl, about smell the dirt. The dirt in Africa smells different than the dirt in New York. When you describe it that way, and you talk about it, it sounds so romantic, right? So, eat, love, and pray. Do you, like, lean into that when a fundraiser who's working with you may be seeking your support in finding an international position that you kind of lean in and make certain that they really understand what they might be signing up for because it goes back to language. Right? What does international I love international spaces and places like, what does that mean to you? I think that's really great advice. What are some of the key things? You talked about learned languages. What I'm hearing in the way you describe going international is that there needs to be just a natural curiosity about other spaces of love, of different cultures, from modest authentic to again, in any culture, there's typically a range, and you have to be comfortable and enjoy exploring all of it, because I think that's what we do as fundraisers. We kind of connect in so many cases, not every nonprofit, but in so many cases, we're connecting great basic needs, whether those are food, access to health care or war or environment critical needs, to supporters who are passionate about that and have the capacity to make a difference, to invest in it, to help transform it. We do kind of life in two worlds.

Daryl Upsall: Yeah, and it's interesting as well. Some people are very difficult to go outside their comfort zone. When I worked for Greenpeace, I had one colleague in San Francisco based originally, but was in Amsterdam, where I had quarters, was, and was struggling to even acclimatize, not just to the weather in Amsterdam, but I couldn't get the same bagels. I can't get the same grind of coffee that I would get. And I'm thinking, well, don't even try waffles. Have a pancake. Try their coffee. They were making coffee way before those grinding any coffee in San Francisco. And remember, New York is New Amsterdam. Came from Holland. In a sense, you've got to throw away a little bit of your inhibitions and what you are to be able to absorb a little bit more of where you are. I certainly when I work in a country like China, where I've had the joy of speaking at conferences there and having clients there, it's a totally different mindset in the world, but it's joyous, especially if you're open to everything, you might not like everything that gets put on your plate. Even me. You better not ask. If you go with your arms and your eyes wide open, you'll have a wonderful time. But if you go with your mindset, say, okay, how can we do what we did at home here? That would be a disaster.

Tammy Zonker: In so many ways, it's kind of going back to beginner's mind and just being completely open like we were when we were born, babies and toddlers, and just curious and open.

Daryl Upsall: Well, I recall the last Chinese conference in Shanghai, and I took out my Chinese-made cell phone very cheap. I'm not an iPhone person. And the Chinese colleagues' fundraisers looked at it and started laughing because I had things like Facebook or WhatsApp. And they were so old-fashioned, so, like, historical. I could have taken out a typewriter, and they would have found money.

Tammy Zonker: In.

Daryl Upsall: China and South Korea. They live in such a digital world. They do everything digitally. They come to the US. Or they come to Europe, and they go, really? I have to do that with a credit card? Why does anybody have a credit card? All the payment mechanisms are on the phone. Social media, my shopping, and my banking it's all interconnected in one app. And they used to think, so that's why they get millions upon or billions, in fact, in micro-donations every night.

Tammy Zonker: Wow. You're really bringing to mind. If I am curious. If I'm interested in exploring a career in international fundraising. Not only do I need to really evaluate or consider. Like. What it would be like to live in that space. What are the cultural differences are. The wonderful things I can learn. The things that I may have to give up attachment to. Like any of the examples that you gave. But also, really looking at and doing my homework on what are the tools and the trends and the best practices and the emerging practices in that country related to raising money. Telling the story. So we really have to go to those websites. We have to ask questions in those exploratory conversations about what technology you use and maybe even talk about how the tools you use; they use to reach certain donor segments.

Daryl Upsall: Absolutely. In fact, if they concern worldwide, an Irish charity based in Dublin, hugely successful in Ireland, wanted to go international, pretty much. And to be fair, they had pretty much dominated the Irish fundraising market. They wanted to go to South Korea. They had nobody who had ever even been to South Korea. But when they went to South Korea, as of many organizations, one of the most incredible fundraising nations on the planet, we don't go there thinking, what can they put from Ireland into South Korea? Our team is always interviewing the top 20 south Korean nonprofits and asking what they're doing, how their results are, what's working, and what's not working. And people may not know. World Vision was founded in South Korea. It's not an American nonprofit. It's a south Korean nonprofit that went international. Did you know that?

Tammy Zonker: Wow. I did not know that.

ising funds in south Korea in: 1958

Tammy Zonker: Wow.

Daryl Upsall: So quite often you surprise yourself, but when people say, oh, it won't work here because it's not invented here, I go, “You have no idea where fundraising was invented.” The Romans were doing fundraising. The medieval cathedral builders were doing fundraising. Face-to-face fundraising, which is street fundraising, signing up the biggest fundraising tool on the planet by far in terms of number of donors recruited. The money raised from inner to Chile was invented in Austria by my team for Greenpeace at the time.

Tammy Zonker: Incredible.

Daryl Upsall: We celebrate face to face. We're about the third online conference coming out of Austria. So often, people assume invented here, but in fact, it was invented centuries before.

Tammy Zonker: Sometimes, yes. And I think that it's really dangerous to generalize, but I think that we in the United States, we feel like we invented fundraising, that philanthropy is something that we do it well. And so sometimes, the most recent Giving USA data shows that Americans gave more than $485,000,000,000. Yes, exactly. But it doesn't mean that we necessarily, like, what we do here would work somewhere else or what's working somewhere else wouldn't work here. I think that there can easily if we're not careful, be almost a bit of arrogance about fundraising in the United States. I'm trying to be sensitive to it.

Daryl Upsall: Now. As the former vice chair of the AFP Association fundraising, and former board member, I'm very supportive, of course. I went to my first AFP, which was the Nsfre conference, I think in 10 00 19 94 in Chicago and Alton and Towers. There was only one session on international fundraising. And we were 20 people, I think, from Greenpeace around the world at that conference. And do you know what the title of that session was? International Fundraising. Good old Yankee know-how.

Tammy Zonker: You had to go just out of curiosity?

Daryl Upsall: Yes, we went and closed it down and ran a free house open session, self-generating competition with a whole bunch of other people because we were not willing to listen to Good Old Yankee.

Tammy Zonker: No, of course, you did. That's awesome.

Daryl Upsall: Brilliant direct mail in those times. Amazing way to get fundraising for international fundraising fees.

e since the Pandemic began in: 2020

, but it goes up to: 1100

Tammy Zonker: I love that description.

Daryl Upsall: We are literally germinating and culminating and creating ideas and celebrating our profession there. And nobody disappears off to a bar down the road because there are tulips all around us. There is nowhere to go.

Tammy Zonker: Yes, well, I've attended three times and spoken once, and I agree with you. It is extraordinary. I think it is truly international. And, of course, as Daryl described, it's hosted at the Nordsville Conference Center, which does have sleeping accommodations. It's very close to the North Sea and about 45 minutes outside of Amsterdam. So A, it's an amazing trip, b, it's an amazing conference, and I encourage every fundraiser to find a way to get there at least once. And what I promise you is if you go once, you'll want to go again.

Daryl Upsall: Absolutely look out for bursary. Or there are speaking opportunities and volunteer opportunities. So many people get there the first time as a volunteer, and they end up doing speakers.

Tammy Zonker: Amazing.

Daryl Upsall: It is really a life-changing organization.

Tammy Zonker: Yes, agreed. We'll include a link to IFC as well as a link to Darryl's sites. Both Daryl Upsonsulting and Darryl Upsell recruiting will include all of those links in the show notes so that everyone can go and learn more. Daryl, at the end of each of these episodes, I like to ask a few rapid-fire questions to give a little bit of extra value to our listeners. Are you ready for some rapid fire?

Daryl Upsall: I'm ready.

Tammy Zonker: Okay, first question. What has been the best fundraising or development advice you've ever been given?

Daryl Upsall: Ignore anybody that says it won't work here.

Tammy Zonker: I love that. Beautiful. I'm actually going to put that on a post a note and put it up in my office. That's beautiful.

Daryl Upsall: And here can be anyone. It can be country, place, organization, you name it, ignore it.

Tammy Zonker: Ignore it. What book do you recommend to our audience and why?

Daryl Upsall: I have no hesitation. It's Relationship Fundraising by Ken Burnett, and it was the first biggest selling fundraising book in history. And my good friend Ken wrote it quite early. You might find me quoted in there. I think it started in the late 80s even, and it was the first book that really focused on the donor, not the process. And it was all about listening to the donor and creating a relationship. Lifetime value. It's a beautiful book and if you read that, you'll read the second one.

Tammy Zonker: I agree. I totally agree. And in fact, Ken was a guest on this podcast. If you want to learn more about Ken and hear from him firsthand, go back a few months, a couple of months in the podcast, and listen to that episode. Download it. So good. I love that book. That book is so full of post-it notes. That probably more as many post-it notes as there are pages. It's ridiculous. Darryl, what are the top three characteristics one needs to be successful as a fundraiser?

Daryl Upsall: Bold, open-minded, and hard-working.

Tammy Zonker: Yes. Love that. What's your favorite fundraising tool or application? We know WhatsApp is one of them.

Daryl Upsall: Brain.

Tammy Zonker: Yes, the brain.

Daryl Upsall: Sorry. The brain, coupled with imagination, coupled with a vision. But it all comes from the brain.

Tammy Zonker: Love it. Your favorite fundraising conference and why? Wonder what that might be? Sounds very consistent. And last question. Knowing what you know now about fundraising, what advice would you give your younger self or someone who's just getting started in the profession?

Daryl Upsall: My own very younger self, when I was probably ten or eleven, created my own motto, which is, nothing is impossible. And I stick with that. And I had the honor of working with one of the greatest heroes of the 20th century, Mr. Nelson Mandela's fundraiser. And he said it is impossible until it's done. I think that says, in other words, you could say it's impossible and then just do it.

Tammy Zonker: Yeah, I love that. One of my all-time favorite autobiographies was his book, Long Walk to Freedom.

Daryl Upsall: Long Walk to Freedom. And when he hugged me, I cried.

Tammy Zonker: I would, too. I'm actually tearing up thinking about you and he hugging. It's beautiful. Oh, Daryl, I could talk to you all day. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your wisdom on going international. I just want to remind everyone to ignore anyone who says it won't work here and that nothing is impossible. So if you want to learn more about Daryl and his work, check out his website. Darrylupsil.com. That's Darryl with one L and Upsell with two L's. We'll include the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Intentional Fundraiser podcast. Darryl, any parting words for us?

Daryl Upsall: Be brave. Just go for it.

Tammy Zonker: Be brave. Just go for it. And I'll add, keep on transforming your fundraising. You can transform the world. We'll see you next time.